PMT 2015-044 by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr.
This is the second in a series answering a reader’s (Rick) question as to whether preterism leaves us empty and spiritually depressed (see PMT 2015-043). I did not think that telling him that I feel pretty good on most days would be all that helpful. He obviously is seriously considering the implications of preterism, and I commend him for that.
In the introductory article I presented his question, then reduced it to a series of focused observations. In this article I will consider the first implication.
What is the mountain burning with fire in Rev 8:8? That text reads: ‘The second angel sounded, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea; and a third of the sea became blood.’ Preterism seems to reduce this enormous catastrophe to a relatively minor occurrence.
In asking this question Rick was assuming that the preterist sees this burning mountain as an image of the Roman siege equipment arrayed against Israel in AD 70. Though this could possibly be speaking of such, I think there is a better understanding available to us.
Four Views on the Book of Revelation
(ed. by Marvin Pate)
Helpful presentation of four approaches to Revelation
See more study materials at: www.KennethGentry.com
Given the fact that Revelation is clearly focusing on AD 70 — due its near-term indicators (Rev 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10) and its theme of judgment against the Jews for killing Christ (Rev 1:7) — I believe an alternative view is much superior.
We must recognize that Scripture often uses mountains to represent kingdoms (Isa 2:2–3; 42:15; Jer 51:25; Am 6:4; Mic 6:1–2; Rev 17:9–10). So here in Rev 8:8 the imagery suggests the collapse of a kingdom. And given John’s time-frame and Jewish-focus, it speaks of the destruction of the nation of Israel.
More particularly though, in keeping with the exodus imagery so abundant in the trumpet judgments and throughout Rev, the “great mountain burning with fire” which was “thrown into the sea” (8:8a) reverses Israel’s Mount Sinai experience. At that original smoldering-mountain episode (Ex 19:16–18), God establishes Israel as a nation (Ex 19:5–6) after her exodus from Egyptian bondage (Ex 20:1). But here in Rev Israel as a nation is destroyed as she is “thrown” down “into the sea” as Rome overwhelms her.
But there is more! John’s imagery appears to be multi-faceted, for this reversal of their Sinai experience also applies Babylon-destruction imagery to Israel. When Babylon falls in the OT, Jeremiah likens it to being overwhelmed by the sea: “The sea has come up over Babylon; / She has been engulfed with its tumultuous waves” (Jer 51:42). That image in Jeremiah almost certainly speaks of the flood of armies overflowing her, as John’s does here in Rev. Jeremiah also speaks of Babylon as a “burnt out mountain”: “‘Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, / Who destroys the whole earth,’ declares the LORD, / ‘And I will stretch out My hand against you, / And roll you down from the crags, / And I will make you a burnt out mountain’” (Jer 51:25).
But this is not all of the significance packed into this image!
The burning-mountain image focuses even more narrowly on a particularly significant result of the collapse of Jewish government in AD 70. It reflects the fiery destruction of Israel’s beloved temple — which destruction could not happen apart from the collapse of the Jewish state. This is significant in that, the temple is the central focus of Israel’s religious affections. And in the OT God’s temple is called a “holy mountain” (Isa 56:7), “the mountain of the house of the Lord” (2Ch 33:15; Isa 2:2–3; Mic 4:1–2; cp. Jer 26:18; Eze 43:12).
John probably also alludes to Jesus’ prophecy regarding the temple mount in Matt 21 (we must remember that John’s great prophecy is “the revelation of Jesus Christ” [Rev 1:1a]). After he cleanses the temple (Matt 21:12–13) and curses the fig tree (Matt 21:20), and just before he denounces the temple authorities (Matt 21:23–46), the Lord prophetically declares: “Truly I say to you, if you have faith, and do not doubt, you shall not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it shall happen” (Matt 21:21). This points to the coming destruction of that temple which sat on the Temple mount.
John’s image of the burned mountain (temple-mount) cast into the sea anticipates the final destruction of Jerusalem-Babylon which is later expressed as follows: “And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste! Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her.’ Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, ‘So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer’” (18:19–21).
The Glory of Christ (book by R. C. Sproul)
From the angels’ revelation of Jesus’ glory to the shepherds outside Bethlehem,
to Jesus’ life-changing revelation of His glory to Paul on the Damascus road,
Sproul guides us to a deeper understanding of Christ’s glory.
For more study materials: www.KennethGentry.com
In AD 70 the Jewish temple sitting on the temple mount is burned as the Roman legions flood into Jerusalem over her toppled walls — as per the image in Rev 8:8. Josephus speaks of the elevated location of the temple: “Now this temple, as I have already said, was built upon a strong hill” (J.W. 5:5:1 §184). Thus, he records the terrible site of the temple’s burning with the following tragic words employing mountain-burning imagery:
“While the holy house was on fire, every thing was plundered that came to hand, and ten thousand of those that were caught were slain; nor was there a commiseration of any age, or any reverence of gravity, but children, and old men, and profane persons, and priests were all slain in the same manner; so that this war went round all sorts of men, and brought them to destruction, and as well those that made supplication for their lives, as those that defended themselves by fighting. The flame was also carried a long way, and made an echo, together with the groans of those that were slain; and because this hill was high, and the works at the temple were very great, one would have thought the whole city had been on fire.” (J.W. 6:5:1 §271–73)
The destruction of the temple is no small, local matter. It results in the final closing of the old covenant and the removal of the temple system. Preterism is not making much ado about nothing. And John most definitely uses imagery in his remarkable book — images such as a seven-headed beast, fire-breathing prophets, lion-headed locusts, and a woman standing on the moon.
Righteous Writing Correspondence Course
This course covers principles for reading a book, using the library,
determining a topie, formulating a thesis, outline, researching, library use,
writing clearly and effectively, getting published, marketing, and more!
Tagged: burning mountain, Josephus, temple destruction
Postmillennial Worldview 
Excellent!
Greetings Ken,
I read the article “Is Preterism Spiritually Depressing” with much interest and agreement. I’m a reformed Dispensationalist and I believe the message of Revelation to fall heavily into the Preterists/Idealists interpretation.
Revelation is difficult to be dogmatic about but I reject in total the dispensational interpretation. I believe the Lord is moving His people away from the heresy that’s dominated the Church for over 150 years about the great message of Revelation.
Lord Bless,
Rob Westerman
Dr. Gentry,
You say in your post: “John’s imagery”, “John’s image”, “John probably also alludes”. This may be nit-picking, but wasn’t John commanded by Jesus in Rev 1:11 “…What you see, write in a book…” So my question is, what did John really “see”, the actual act or an image of the act? Was is technically Jesus’ image that he saw (i.e. a big burning mountain thrown into the sea that represents something else) or did he see Jerusalem being overrun and burned by the Roman legions and then made up his own image to describe it? In some instances, an angel explains the image John has seen, but in others, like in 8:8 there is no angelic explanation. So do you think John fully understood all of the images he wrote, or was John just writing down what he “saw” in his vision and we are now left to try and discern the true meaning of the image that John saw (i.e. Joseph interpreting Pharaoh’s dream)?
Doug
Kenneth what is the best commentary for 2THessalonians 2?
John saw visions, which were sybmols of the reality to which they pointed. We see his careful description of, for instance, a seven-headed beast with ten horns, and so forth. This pointed to Rome, but through symbolism. Rome was not actually a seven-headed beast, obviously.
We know John did not understand all that he saw, for he tells us so. For example, Rev 17:6-7: “And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly. And the angel said to me,
Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.'” See also: Rev 7:13-14. He also falls down to worship an angel twice, without realizing they were just angels (Rev. 19:10; 22:8-9).
But he gives us enough insights so that we might wrestle with the text and come to proper conclusions. He himself struggled to understand some things. So certainly we must.
I have a relatively thorough commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2 in my book, Perilous Times.
I respectfully have a question I hope you can answer. I have been researching preterism Versus Futurism and have a Litany of questions. But one I would like to ask here would you reference in your aforementioned quote of Revelations Is the merchants who stand Aloft at sea lamenting the destruction of the Great city. I know it goes on to say all of the merchants in Kings of the Earth grew wealthy from her, yet my research into the economic effects of Jerusalem in the first century ad indicate it had a very, very minor role in trade and certainly did not build the wealth of all the merchants and nations of the earth. There were a couple of coastal cities In that region that Much come up much more important for trade, so how can reasonably these verses about Jerusalem making the whole world wealthy be true? Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. God bless you.
The wealth which is especially under view is that of the temple, which had enormous gold stores. These were pillaged by the Romans.
Hmmmm 🤔. So the Kings and Merchants of the world DIDN’T mourn over the loss of Jerusalem because they weren’t going to get wealthy anymore, they were actually rejoicing that they were getting wealthier upon its destruction? But only the Roman merchants? It just doesn’t fit.
I just want to point out, brother, that it’s very easy, when putting together a puzzle, to take the pieces that don’t quite fit and trim them so they do. But it doesn’t necessarily complete the puzzle, it still leaves more unanswered questions. I think it’s safe to say, and we all know historically, that the merchants and nations of the world did NOT get wealthy from trade with Jerusalem, neither did they mourn over her destruction because they weren’t going to get wealthy any longer. We have to twist and invert parts of the prophesies to make them match because they say the opposite of what actually happened.
Futurism does the same thing, it tries to trim pieces of the puzzle to make it fit when it doesn’t. I think preterism is closer to the actual truth, but there are so many areas still where they have to trim pieces to make it fit. It’s either that, or they have to admit the Bible lied. But seriously, there’s no amount of metaphor or simile or allegory or symbolism that can make those verses appear to say something different. Either the Kings and Merchants of the world got wealthy from Jerusalem and then mourned her destruction, or they didn’t.
There are so many other things that don’t quite fit, like the fact that Satan and his demons were locked away after Jesus resurrection, yet the apostles were performing exorcisms in the book of Acts, so clearly demons were out and about and active.
And the trampling on Jerusalem until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, this is supposed to have been only a month, from August 70 AD to September 70 AD? And then the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled? I mean, wasn’t the times of the Gentiles supposed to be after Jews rejected Jesus? Yet Luke 21 seems to indicate that this doesn’t occur until after the Gentiles trample on Jerusalem. So it’s basically only a month.
And one of the biggest pieces I see that doesn’t fit is turning Genesis chapters 1 through 10 into didactic fiction by claiming there was no original sin, that Adam was somehow created evil. This is what I have heard from many preterists. But the fundamental question, then, is why did Jesus come at all? He was a sacrifice for what? If humans were created sinful and humans are still sinful today, why did God need to wait thousands of years to send a sacrifice for something that never happened, original sin? Without original sin, then nothing really changed spiritually after Christ. We’re still the same now as we were before. Christ didn’t need to sacrifice himself if there’s absolutely nothing his blood washes away because we were allegedly created evil anyway.
There are just many questions unanswered and logical inconsistencies, and preterist have as many different interpretations as futurists do. I can see at its core a fundamental truth in preterism, but whenever questions about specifics arise, nobody can answer them satisfactorily. Every time I go to a preterist website or chat room or social media group, they all tell me a little something different. It’s so confusing, I sometimes doubt if any of this is even real.
Can you understand my concerns here? It’s as if whenever something doesn’t fit, we alter so it does. I mean honestly, the treasures that sat inside the temple had not been making the Roman world wealthy such that the kings and the merchants of the Roman world wept when Jerusalem fell. If anything, that scripture makes it sound like Rome is the one that made the kings and merchants of the earth wealthy. Scripture almost sounds as if it’s describing the subsequent fall of Rome after they destroyed Jerusalem.
Are you completely certain that all of Revelation and all prophecy was basically completed in the reign between Nero and Vespacian? There’s no other times for which we’re waiting?
Hang on, AJ. I will answering your in an article to be posted on November 8. It think you will find it helpful.